Omniscience vs Free Will
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The_Spider 
Posts: 127
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 Posted: 10:39AM Oct 1, 2012 |
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The Spider attempts intelligent discussion 
This is a common disucssion on random internet forums, but I wanted to introduce it here.. It takes various forms, but the general gist of it is as follows:
•A being with free will, given two options A and B, can freely choose between A and B.
•God is omniscient (all-knowing).
•God knows I will choose A.
•God cannot be wrong, since an omniscient being cannot have false knowledge.
•From 3 and 4, I will choose A and cannot choose B.
•From 1 and 5, omniscience and free will cannot co-exist.
What is your opinion
Whether you believe in free will, or an omnisicent being, both or neither, do you think the above argument is valid. I do not, for a specific reason, but I wanted to see what others thought
---This message was edited on 10:42AM Oct 1, 2012---
Can you imagine what I would do if I could do all I can - Sun Tzu |
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ka-ching
Posts: 674
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Posted: 10:41AM Oct 1, 2012 |
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Opinion? I thought we were using logic for this one.
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The_Spider
Posts: 127
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Posted: 10:42AM Oct 1, 2012 |
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Well, does the above logic hold? Can free will and omniscience coexist?
Can you imagine what I would do if I could do all I can - Sun Tzu |
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ka-ching
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Posted: 10:49AM Oct 1, 2012 |
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In our perception, free will exists. The choice is there, we can see it. What we can't see yet is what our choice is. For someone (God) for whom time is not linear, for whom all time is always now, the choice is already made and as a result, there is no choice. Free will exists only in our observation.
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Shadows  
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Posted: 08:02PM Oct 1, 2012 |
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If I were to ask my little sister if she would rather have chocolate chip cookies or M&M cookies, she is free to choose whichever one she wants, but I know that she will choose the former because I know how much she loves chocolate chips.
"Time's rushing by me like the wind / Gotta grab each moment that I can / 'Cause I'm never gonna feel like this again" |
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LogicalRoger
Posts: 2441
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Posted: 09:18PM Oct 1, 2012 |
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Well, personally, I think there can be a lack of free will and a lack of a deity, as that's what I believe. Given the logic, as the above posters have both demonstrated, the two can coexist. Still, it seems an odd sort of "free will" to me. For free will to be true, the person must be able to act in any way they choose, no matter what another person or entity determines (as long as it's physically possible, of course).
So, for instance, if Deity A determines you'll do something, gives you the choice, and you choose what A assumes, they work. But, if you have a bet with Deity A on that you can disagree with him, and you want to win, can you ever actually get what you want? You have the freedom to argue, at least initially, but you will have to acquiesce. If you want to do something Deity A says you will not (assuming you have knowledge of your lack of ability) you will never be able to do it. In this situation, I wouldn't consider free will to be free because it seems like your options aren't really open. Even if the thing that led to your final decision moves you emotionally and logically to act in accordance, the fact that you never had this knowledge makes the question seem lacking. Plus, even if you did see it coming, you certainly might not have wanted it to happen.
Sounds to me like it's only free will if you agree with the person in charge. Since you'll likely not always agree, I wouldn't say it's always free will. Of course, I doubt anyone has the ability to decide what they want, anyways. There's just too much influences on every aspect of the human mind.
Also, let's consider Zeus is Deity A, just so no one gets touchy. Just so this topic can remain open. It may upset some of those pesky Classical Greeks, but it should be fine for most.
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Mad-Ade
Kebab Warrior
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Posted: 01:11AM Oct 2, 2012 |
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Shadows wrote: If I were to ask my little sister if she would rather have chocolate chip cookies or M&M cookies, she is free to choose whichever one she wants, but I know that she will choose the former because I know how much she loves chocolate chips. You don't "Know" she will choose the former, you only assume based on what you has observed before.
if, for example, an omniscient being has already seen her choose the choc chip cookie at the beginning of time, could she, when the time comes actually exert free will and have the M&M cookie instead?
---This message was edited on 01:12AM Oct 2, 2012---
Creationism, So much easier than thinking! |
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JQPublic
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Posted: 04:47AM Oct 2, 2012 |
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LogicalRoger wrote: Well, personally, I think there can be a lack of free will and a lack of a deity, as that's what I believe. Given the logic, as the above posters have both demonstrated, the two can coexist. Still, it seems an odd sort of "free will" to me. For free will to be true, the person must be able to act in any way they choose, no matter what another person or entity determines (as long as it's physically possible, of course).
So, for instance, if Deity A determines you'll do something, gives you the choice, and you choose what A assumes, they work. But, if you have a bet with Deity A on that you can disagree with him, and you want to win, can you ever actually get what you want? You have the freedom to argue, at least initially, but you will have to acquiesce. If you want to do something Deity A says you will not (assuming you have knowledge of your lack of ability) you will never be able to do it. In this situation, I wouldn't consider free will to be free because it seems like your options aren't really open. Even if the thing that led to your final decision moves you emotionally and logically to act in accordance, the fact that you never had this knowledge makes the question seem lacking. Plus, even if you did see it coming, you certainly might not have wanted it to happen.
Sounds to me like it's only free will if you agree with the person in charge. Since you'll likely not always agree, I wouldn't say it's always free will. Of course, I doubt anyone has the ability to decide what they want, anyways. There's just too much influences on every aspect of the human mind.
Also, let's consider Zeus is Deity A, just so no one gets touchy. Just so this topic can remain open. It may upset some of those pesky Classical Greeks, but it should be fine for most.
I don't think Zeus is omniscient. 
I think, deity or no deity, there's no free will under this definition. You may be given a choice between A and B, but how you make the choice depends on how your brain cells happen to be working at that time. One day, brain scientists may be able to predetermine your decision that after scanning your brain. There can already be prior knowledge of the decision.
'An idea, like a ghost, must be spoken to a little before it will explain itself.' - Charles Dickens |
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snappytom
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Posted: 07:05AM Oct 3, 2012 |
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BUT you have a 'choice' of A or B...but you may be predestined to choose A and only 'think' you have a choice!
Your 'choice' may be predetermined!
Snappy Snappy Snap..Snap Snap Snap Snap! |
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The_Spider
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Posted: 09:23AM Oct 3, 2012 |
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I like to believe we have true free will, not just the illusion of it. Maybe my only basis for that is that I want it to be so and not that it neccessarily is. I've seen a lot of reasons why the contradiction really isnt a contradiction but they are usually pretty lazy or incomplete.
I think the only real way they can coexist is if you play with exactly what it means to be omniscient. Of course you would know all, but does an omniscient being know things that are unknowable? If we have true free will, then our choices cannot be set until we make them, so therefore it is not possible to know them beforehand, even for an omniscient being. Does that make it impossible for a Diety to be omniscient? I don't think so, God knows all that is possible to know, but not which is logically unknowable.
That's how I choose to resolve the contradiction from a logical standpoint, but I'm not sure what I honestly believe regardign the existence of true free will
Can you imagine what I would do if I could do all I can - Sun Tzu |
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Smithy 
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Posted: 10:46AM Oct 3, 2012 |
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If you throw omnipotence into the mix then the two are theoretically not contradictory.
---This message was edited on 10:46AM Oct 3, 2012--- |
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LogicalRoger
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Posted: 10:50AM Oct 3, 2012 |
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Of course you would know all, but does an omniscient being know things that are unknowable? I would assume that, yes, erm, "Zeus", does know all, including the "unknowable" as he is also supposed to be "omnipotent." To be unable to know everything would not only be a false omniscience but also be a false omnipotence. If one cannot do all, including the impossible, I would not consider that true omnipotence. It's like someone saying, "I am the strongest!" but then having to later qualify that by saying, "Well, I'm the strongest at bending straws, at least." You can't claim you are the strongest if you cannot do all. Now, if Zeus isn't fully omnipotent and omniscient, then, yes, there can be things unknown to him, but then, those wouldn't be the same characteristics.
If we have true free will, then our choices cannot be set until we make them, so therefore it is not possible to know them beforehand, even for an omniscient being. One day, brain scientists may be able to predetermine your decision that after scanning your brain. There can already be prior knowledge of the decision. If I'm not mistaken, there have already been tests involving choices and brain signals. Before a person seems to consciously choose, there is brain activity indicating which choice the person will pick. This would seem to question free will highly, as, before you even decide, it seems your brain has already decided for you. So are there "unknowable" things? I'm not sure. Like I said above, if one really knows all, they ought to know normally unknowable things. Given the experiments in neurology I've noted, the unknowability doesn't even seem to be a factor, so I'd hope that said Deity can know something a machine can.
Frankly I don't believe a deity necessarily comes into the conversation of free will. One can, but just as likely, two atheists can argue over the question of it as well.
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JQPublic
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Posted: 04:54AM Oct 4, 2012 |
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Um, LR, Greek gods aren't usually omniscient or omnipotent.
'An idea, like a ghost, must be spoken to a little before it will explain itself.' - Charles Dickens |
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shawneeo
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Posted: 07:10PM Oct 13, 2012 |
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I thought he was just using "Zeus" as an example of a deity.
Who has free will? Do we create everything that comes before we make a "free" choice? Do we choose to have our level of intelligence, our family genes, our environment, our parent's influences, and every other thing that leads a person to go right instead of left?
I don't think it's either... we're just a little part of huge being that's unknown to us and doesn't fit into our "free will" and "predeterminism" categories.
Life... can be so many things... how can anyone ever think they are RIGHT? HAhahahahahahaha!!!!! |
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